The Oven of Akhnai
A Meditation by Rev. Cameron Trimble
“The Torah is not in heaven.” — Deuteronomy 30:12, as interpreted in the Talmud (Bava Metzia 59b)
There is a story in the Talmud that reads like a seminar in moral imagination.1
A group of rabbis are arguing about a point of law — the ritual purity of a new kind of oven that was brought before the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Eliezer is certain he is right. The oven is ritually pure. The others disagree. The debate grows intense. Eliezer calls on miracles to prove his case. A carob tree uproots itself. A river reverses its flow. The walls of the study hall begin to lean inward.
Each time, the other rabbis refuse to be persuaded.
Finally, a heavenly voice booms from above and declares, “Why do you argue with Rabbi Eliezer? The law follows him in every place.”
And still, the rabbis do not yield.
They stand and respond, “The Torah is not in heaven.”
And here they teach us about the power of relationship.
The Torah has been given into human hands. It lives in conversation, in argument, in interpretation, in the messy, faithful work of people trying to discern what love and justice require in real life. Even divine certainty does not override that process. Wisdom is not imposed. It emerges.
The story ends with one of the most astonishing lines in all of religious literature. God laughs and says, “My children have defeated me.”2
God doesn’t admit defeat because they were rebellious; it’s because they were relationally faithful.
This story is not about who wins an argument. It is about how wisdom actually comes into being. Not through dominance. Not through spectacle. Not through the loudest voice or the highest authority.
Wisdom arises in the space between people who stay in dialogue long enough to be changed by one another.
The rabbis refused miracles not because they disrespected God, but because they respected the field of relationship that had formed among them. They trusted that something wiser could emerge from their shared discernment than from any single voice, even a heavenly one.
The wisdom did not belong to Eliezer.
It did not belong to the majority.
It did not belong to God alone.
It belonged to the relationship between Torah, the rabbis, the people, and God.
That is the part of the story we are forgetting how to live today. We inhabit a world that treats disagreement as threat. We collapse difference into hostility. We reward certainty and punish curiosity. We outsource discernment to algorithms, ideologies, and strongmen because dialogue feels slow, fragile, and exhausting.
But genuine wisdom does not come from purity or dominance. It comes from people who remain in relationship when it would be easier to retreat into righteousness or withdrawal.
In this way, civil debate is not politeness. It is a spiritual discipline. It requires humility. It requires courage. It requires the willingness to be changed by someone who does not share your starting assumptions.
The Oven of Akhnai teaches that the sacred does not bypass human conversation. It moves through it. New possibilities emerge from the relational field — from the tension, trust, disagreement, and care that form when people stay in dialogue instead of turning one another into enemies.
This is why the story ends with laughter. God is not threatened by human discernment. God delights in it.
We need that kind of wisdom now. We need spaces where disagreement does not end in exile. We need communities that trust dialogue more than spectacle. We need a politics, a theology, and a social life that remember that no one carries the whole truth alone.
The Torah is not in heaven. It is in the conversation. It is in the argument. It is in the relationship. It is in the courage to remain present to one another when the answers are not yet clear.
That is where wisdom still comes from. And that is the kind of world we can still build together.
We are in this together,
Cameron
Reflection Questions
Where in your life have you been tempted to protect certainty instead of staying in relationship? What might change if you chose dialogue over control?
Who do you currently experience as “the other,” and what would it mean to encounter them with genuine curiosity rather than defensiveness?
What kind of wisdom might be waiting to emerge in your community if people remained in conversation long enough to be changed by one another?
A Prayer for the Day
A Blessing for Staying in Relationship
Holy Mystery who dwells not above us but among us, we confess how easily we retreat into certainty, how quickly we turn disagreement into threat, how often we confuse being right with being faithful. Teach us again how to stay. Teach us how to listen when it would be easier to withdraw. Teach us how to speak truth without turning one another into enemies. Teach us how to hold difference without collapsing into domination or despair. We long for a wisdom larger than our own perspective. We long for a truth that does not belong to any single voice. We long for a world shaped by conversation rather than coercion. Breathe courage into our relationships. Soften the places where fear has hardened us. Give us the humility to be changed by one another and the patience to remain present when answers are not yet clear. May our communities become places where dialogue lives, where disagreement deepens understanding, and where love holds us steady long enough for something new to be born. Amen.
Spiritual Practice
The Practice of Staying
Sometime this week, choose one conversation you have been avoiding or managing carefully because it feels charged, tender, or unresolved.
Before you enter it, pause. Take three slow breaths. Say quietly to yourself: “I am here to stay in relationship, not to win.”
During the conversation, practice one simple discipline:
Do not interrupt.
Do not correct.
Do not prepare your reply while the other person is speaking.
Listen long enough to be changed. You do not need to resolve anything. You do not need to persuade anyone. Your only commitment is presence.
Afterward, notice what shifted inside you. Not what you achieved, but what you encountered. That is the field where wisdom grows.
Important Notice: I’ve been made aware that unauthorized copies of one of my books, The Beginner’s Bible Study, are currently being advertised and sold through Facebook and other online ads, often by overseas sellers. These versions are not produced or approved by me, contain numerous typos and inaccuracies, and sometimes require a one-time or recurring subscription fee. Please do not click on or purchase from these ads. The only authentic versions of my work are those sold directly through my official website and trusted publishing partners.
Upcoming Events That Might Be of Interest…
February 5, 2026 - Margaret Wheatley and and I are launching a new online course called “Leading with Spirit,” a six-session journey into soul-grounded leadership designed to deepen your trust in guidance, nurture perseverance, and rekindle imaginal wisdom for our fractured world. Take a look at the course outline. We are really excited and hope you can join! Scholarship are available if needed. Learn more here!
February 11th and 25, 2026 - Join Our “Building a Culture of Leadership Within Congregations” Cohort facilitated by Rabbi Benjamin Ross and me! A two-session course for ministers and faith leaders ready to strengthen how their congregations and ministries identify, develop, and support leaders. Learn more here.
July 19-24, 2026 - Join me on retreat in the back-country of beautiful Wyoming. The Art of Wilding is a 5-Day Expedition for Women Leaders. We will spend the week reconnecting to nature, exploring our inner landscapes for change, and engage the wisdom of spiritual teachings. Click here to learn more.
I drafted a Strategic Framework for Congregations as we move into the coming years of increased authoritarianism around the world. If interested, you can download it here.
Fun Things My Friends Are Up To…
I get to work with such amazing, creative people. This section is my way of celebrating them—no paid promotions, just joy in what they’re creating.
The cool folks over at Spiritual Wanderlust are launching a new program called “Night School.” It’s a twelve-month journey through the Dark, offering the rituals, practices, and companionship humans have long relied on in times of deep transformation. You will be accompanied by elders and teachers who have walked this terrain deeply, including James Finley, Barbara Brown Taylor, and Ronald Rolheiser. I think this looks amazing.
Randy Woodley is offering a 15-part series on his Substack which is teaching me so much about how democracy does and doesn’t work for people. Randy is a Cherokee descendant recognized by the Keetoowah Band, a recovering academic, and a storyteller. You should check out his work.
If you are part of a congregation, you should check out the great resources at Church Anew. They produce ready-made resources and formation materials. Amazing stuff.
If you are a leader or member of a congregation looking for consulting support in visioning, planning, hiring or staffing, please consider Convergence.
https://voices.sefaria.org/sheets/144163?lang=bi
Larger perspective...
wider focus, listen, learn.
Not solos, chorus.
Oh, and I love the painting! What I’m most curious about is the woman… I would so love to know what she’s thinking!