I am a Canadian. I have visited the United States over the years and had a few extended vacations there. I don't know if I will ever go back. I consider the actions of the present Trump administration to be the most significant adverse development in the history of the world since the end of WWII. I see significant parallels between this administration and the administration of Adolf Hitler. I do not understand why more thinking, moral Americans are not acting strongly to resist the actions of Trump and his supporters. God help us all.
Thank you so much for posting this. I am an interfaith minister/hospice chaplain who just moved a few months ago from Chicago to a southern state. When I first started meeting my patients, I would scour their yard for political signs and try to catch what news station was on before I entered to prepare myself. Although I do my best to avoid political discussions in my role, in an over-politicized world during an election season, it often comes up. Here is what I have noticed.
As I got to know and love more and more people who I didn’t agree with, the less hyper-vigilant I became about labeling them. I just started to see them as people who are afraid, because we all are just running around scared shitless in this world. All of us.
When I ask people about fears, as chaplains do, I have yet to find a time where my innate fears as a human did not in some way connect with theirs, because we are all insanely human. All of us.
So, now I don’t listen outside the door for what news station is on or search for potential MAGA items in a living room. It doesn’t even occur to me. I am changed. I think this change in me is biological (check out Kurt Gray’s book, “Outraged”) and spiritual (check out the Bible or any ancient spiritual text).
Jesus did teach us to love our enemies, but what I am relearning from Jesus every day now is this. When we are open to the Christ-like nature of every person, especially those we perceive as our enemies, we realize they were probably never our enemies in the first place.
While I appreciate the dialogue this persons worldview is dictated by the propaganda from Fox News. The problem that I see is that it comes from one worldview perspective - white superiority. These same people make NO attempt to hear another side or to try and understand another person's lives experience. The cultur they grew up in - whiteness is totally different from lived experiences of others. And without any desire to believe experiences of others, they will always have a limited viewpoint. And let's fjusy speak the truth, it's always been about white superiority - set up by a system that has been in operation from the beginning of time- to divide people. We know it's always been about class - disguised as racism and sexism. And for which people has consistently bought into. The constant act to do a comparison demonstrates the same old tired wordiness. To deny this administration ideology and values that go against Christian values is just ridiculous. Dialogue is good when people are truly invested in wanting to be open to other viewpoints and understand HISTORY, not the constant everyday gaslighting that FOX news and this administration spew daily. They don't care about anyone who is not part of the 1% however so many think they are different because that is what they have been led to believe - that they are special, however they have been and are continuing to be used at the expense of others. To HATE people you know nothing about and make no effort to want to understand - tells all. They are not interested in things being different if it effects their status quo.
Every fiber of my heart wants to be able to see this as two sides of a conversation that just see things from a different perspective. I do hear that in this conversation you shared. But something in my just bristles about statements made by your friend Mark. So I get quiet and ask myself "what is stirring when you read that"? For me, I think a HUGE challenge is hearing statements of opinion that are posited as facts. Such as, "He’s not ignoring the courts—he’s challenging activist judges who are trying to block his policies. " The fact is that Donald Trump and his administration have directly disobeyed court orders. That is just a matter of fact. And that threatens to neuter the rule of law. If he had said "Yes, they ignored a court order, but my opinion is that it was a justified act because I see the judges as acting out of line", that could have taken the conversation to a deeper place about the values underneath.
I know I do this too. I state my opinions in a way that presents them as facts. I am praying very hard right now for the gift of discernment. Even within circles of friends where we all agree - I am seeing it as corrosive to state my opinions as if they are hard facts. I am fully engaged in citizen activism to rise up against what I believe to be an alarming and dangerous move toward an authoritarian regime in the US. I look at facts of what is happening and I am called into action. Along the way, I continue to pray for the ability to discern facts from my story about the facts. May God be with us, helping to clear our vision and keep our hearts open.
I am most grateful to read about these two sides to this conversation. It is always helpful, and I think healthy, to listen to and try to understand other points of view. And while it may be true that changes need to be made in the various departments of government, what weighs my heart down and deeply saddens me is how the changes are currently being carried out with such violence. Programs that helped our day to day lives work are cut short, education and our history are cast aside, differences are ignored, our veterans are shortchanged, safety is compromised and children go hungry. And that doesn't even begin to touch the list. I believe we are called to stand up for justice, to let the love of Christ continue to shine in our hearts and to reach beyond ourselves to live our faith in the face of what I honestly feel, and I feel this way for the first time in my life, is true oppression in our country. No matter what this administration erases from websites about who we are and who has made sacrifices for our well-being. No matter what the administration makes in the way of judgement about what the religion, sexual preference or ethnicity of an individual is. We cannot give up.
We must have courage and remain steadfast in what God is calling us to do.
Thank you for your daily ministry in these last weeks---it has sustained and blessed me and my online community in many ways. Thank you especially for the transcript of this conversation which so clearly demonstrates the reason we are so divided. This is a big help to me to have a window into the thinking of some of my family and colleagues when I shake my head at how they can support this administration. Your friend Mark has a valid point that national leaders of the Democratic party have largely left the rural working class out of their conversations and talk down to them from a place of intellectual superiority. Nobody likes that. And we are all guilty of jumping on someone in a very judgemental way when they unknowingly aren't as "woke" as we are and use the wrong terminology in a discussion. Nobody likes that either. The thing that Mark and my collegues are missing is that if we abandon the rule of law, we are all doomed. Let's give Mark the benefit of the doubt and say that all the things he says are true---the system is pitted against Trump and the little guy and he has to fight back hard to break it and make things right. He can fight back hard. He can even change things dramatically. But if he doesn't do it within the legal system and the legislative process, then we have anarchy and one-man rule. Would he like for a Democratic president to massively change things in a direction Mark doesn't like despite judges orders and despite congressional approval? Presidents have a lot of power, even within the law. And Trump could make most of these changes he is making within the law and with legislation if he wants to, but he is choosing not to do it that way because he wants to break the rule of law itself.
I read your column first thing every morning while I try to find God in this whole mess. Thank you for offering such grace to the world. We are all on our last nerve these days and you provide a sense of calm, common sense and proof that there is still goodness in our world.
Thanks for sharing this conversation. I hope there will be more conversations like this all over the place. I was thinking this morning about writing something entitled "Why Do We Hate Each Other So Much" after observing that close to half of the country thinks the other half is evil and/or stupid - and the other half thinks the same. Not sure if the writing will materialize, but I do see a heightened mutual abhorrence that is getting us nowhere. I am not quite sure how to remedy this. For me, the problem is that the beliefs and philosophies I hold are a part of the depth of my being - and matter to me and people I love. I am struggling to be able to set that reality aside and take time to listen - and am rarely successful. Thanks for sharing your courageous and insightful conversation. Peace!
I’ve read several comments to your thread today agree and disagree. I am on a cruise in Europe and today we gave a walking tour of Regensberg’s old town and Jews sector. Our guide was a young 30ish young lady who was a second language teacher. On the site of the former Synagogue, she recalled the first and second world wars, paying particular attention to treatment of Jews. What she told us and several were American was what happened then. She was very emotional and very accurate. She excused herself and said that the present American administration was repeating history.
It’s hard to talk to someone who won’t/can’t listen. Right now, it’s too late to save America because of the constant bombardment of the lies and there does not appear to be any real effort to stop them. The Fox New tirade said it all, there is no respect for the truth….GOD HELP US ALL!!!
Staying in conversation with dignity and respect, particularly with those who hold different points of view is a superhuman challenge to each of us. I am working to learn and practice the following practices, which you embodied in your conversation:
1. Don't take it personally
2. Don't play the victim
3. Avoid other forms of communication except direct conversatioins
4. Find meaning and possibility in the struggles ahead
5. Define yourself. Don't let others define you.
6. Don't abandon yourself or those you love and serve. Remember who you are and why you're here.
7. Know what you are faithful to, both spiritually and practically.
8. Embody your faith.
9. Only use processes that bring people together in mutual respect.
10. Conversation is the technology.
11. Stay stedfast in your behavior.
From "Who Do We Chose to Be" by Magargaret J. Wheatley. abbreviated from Lessons Learned fom Besieged Nuns, pps. 114-115
Rev Trimble, I so appreciate the wisdom and holistic theological reflections you share. Your views on things tend to balance out my, shall we say, sometimes passionate response to the issues I care about. I also can say I don't disagree w/your friend that things needed to change. Our system was imperfect. It did tend to favor those who had money and power, who are white, hetero male. I mean no disrespect to the white, hetero males who acknowledge this, have done and are doing the work to address the power imbalance in our county. Ours has been a system which outright harmed and harms people of color, people in the LGBTQ+community, including those who identify their gender or relationship status in many different ways, people of different abilities, and women. He's not wrong about that. And there has been an attitude of dismissal towards blue collar workers, toward the farmers, towards those not in the ivory towers. How often over the years have children been told to go to the college, it's the way out or up, forgetting that we need the artists, musicians, electricians, plumbers, construction workers and others as well.
Where I disagree with with him and am having a hard time understanding is why he and others think a 34 times convicted felon, a rapist (convicted in civil court), one who engages in racist practices, has no idea about the faith that Jesus taught and practiced yet is somehow considered a person of faith, is the person who can address the social ills of our society. His thoughts which guide his actions are not helping anyone except those in his circle and the extremely wealthy. I'm guessing your friend is not in that category.
I wish to share two articles that may help explain to your friend why his presidency is not a good idea for this county, for his neighbors as well as for people across the globe.
Here is the link to Robert Reich's newsletter of today describing in detail how destructive these actions are. You may perhaps have already seen this:
Additonally -Brandon Weber shared the following on FB. I apologize for the length of this comment but I read both of these things after reading your meditation and thought that the information stated might worth sharing in addition to your reasoned and reasonable response to his positions. This administration is dismantling our Democracy willy-nilly and literally ending people's lives with this destruction. I hope if you have further conversation with him, this can be of some use.
SHARED BY Brandon Weber on FB
·
"The best, most cogent and elegantly simple explanation into the inexplicably destructive negotiating processes of the president, by Prof. David Honig of Indiana University.
Everybody I know should read this accurate and enlightening piece...
“I’m going to get a little wonky and write about Donald Trump and negotiations. For those who don't know, I'm an adjunct professor at Indiana University - Robert H. McKinney School of Law and I teach negotiations. Okay, here goes.
Trump, as most of us know, is the credited author of "The Art of the Deal," a book that was actually ghost written by a man named Tony Schwartz, who was given access to Trump and wrote based upon his observations. If you've read The Art of the Deal, or if you've followed Trump lately, you'll know, even if you didn't know the label, that he sees all dealmaking as what we call "distributive bargaining."
Distributive bargaining always has a winner and a loser. It happens when there is a fixed quantity of something and two sides are fighting over how it gets distributed. Think of it as a pie and you're fighting over who gets how many pieces. In Trump's world, the bargaining was for a building, or for construction work, or subcontractors. He perceives a successful bargain as one in which there is a winner and a loser, so if he pays less than the seller wants, he wins. The more he saves the more he wins.
The other type of bargaining is called integrative bargaining. In integrative bargaining the two sides don't have a complete conflict of interest, and it is possible to reach mutually beneficial agreements. Think of it, not a single pie to be divided by two hungry people, but as a baker and a caterer negotiating over how many pies will be baked at what prices, and the nature of their ongoing relationship after this one gig is over.
The problem with Trump is that he sees only distributive bargaining in an international world that requires integrative bargaining. He can raise tariffs, but so can other countries. He can't demand they not respond. There is no defined end to the negotiation and there is no simple winner and loser. There are always more pies to be baked. Further, negotiations aren't binary. China's choices aren't (a) buy soybeans from US farmers, or (b) don't buy soybeans. They can also (c) buy soybeans from Russia, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Canada, etc. That completely strips the distributive bargainer of his power to win or lose, to control the negotiation.
One of the risks of distributive bargaining is bad will. In a one-time distributive bargain, e.g. negotiating with the cabinet maker in your casino about whether you're going to pay his whole bill or demand a discount, you don't have to worry about your ongoing credibility or the next deal. If you do that to the cabinet maker, you can bet he won't agree to do the cabinets in your next casino, and you're going to have to find another cabinet maker.
There isn't another Canada.
So when you approach international negotiation, in a world as complex as ours, with integrated economies and multiple buyers and sellers, you simply must approach them through integrative bargaining. If you attempt distributive bargaining, success is impossible. And we see that already.
Trump has raised tariffs on China. China responded, in addition to raising tariffs on US goods, by dropping all its soybean orders from the US and buying them from Russia. The effect is not only to cause tremendous harm to US farmers, but also to increase Russian revenue, making Russia less susceptible to sanctions and boycotts, increasing its economic and political power in the world, and reducing ours. Trump saw steel and aluminum and thought it would be an easy win, BECAUSE HE SAW ONLY STEEL AND ALUMINUM - HE SEES EVERY NEGOTIATION AS DISTRIBUTIVE. China saw it as integrative, and integrated Russia and its soybean purchase orders into a far more complex negotiation ecosystem.
Trump has the same weakness politically. For every winner there must be a loser. And that's just not how politics works, not over the long run.
For people who study negotiations, this is incredibly basic stuff, negotiations 101, definitions you learn before you even start talking about styles and tactics. And here's another huge problem for us.
Trump is utterly convinced that his experience in a closely held real estate company has prepared him to run a nation, and therefore he rejects the advice of people who spent entire careers studying the nuances of international negotiations and diplomacy. But the leaders on the other side of the table have not eschewed expertise, they have embraced it. And that means they look at Trump and, given his very limited tool chest and his blindly distributive understanding of negotiation, they know exactly what he is going to do and exactly how to respond to it.
From a professional negotiation point of view, Trump isn't even bringing checkers to a chess match. He's bringing a quarter that he insists of flipping for heads or tails, while everybody else is studying the chess board to decide whether its better to open with Najdorf or Grünfeld.”
“An invitation to listen—not to agree, but to understand.” is listed as one of the invitations. You listened, you do not agree, but can you truly say you understand? I leave these kinds of conversations still mystified because I don’t understand. How do two people look at something green and one person claims it’s purple and the other says it’s pink? Objectively, somebody is incorrect. I can listen, and not agree, but I can’t understand! This is all rhetorical of course, none of us really knows how to close this gap. So we do our best to love our fellow neighbors and friends.
MaryBeth - I have this conversation with myself frequently. I have two thoughts re: this.
1: If you are familiar w/the Meyers-Briggs assessment and the Enneagram you already know that we humans process information differently, from each other, not just the rest of creation. I really started thinking about this in 2016, the first go-around w/the upheaval this individual brought to our country and the rest of the world. The thought crossed my mind that the two primary groups of people in this existence, his supporters and those who don't, aren't only seeing things differently but must have different brain structures. How else to explain the radical differences...but if we think about it, brain structure and/or function must have something to do with it. Using your example of colors, I am reminded that people do not necessarily even see the same colors and I am not just talking about color blindness. My husband and I can look at the same color and he will say it is something completely different from what I see. Perhaps our experiences also "color" (sorry) the way we respond to what we see, hear and experience.
Additionally, to this point, while not being presumptuous enough to make any kind of diagnosis as it's not my place, there seem to be mental health issues (also brain related, hence my mentioning that) that influence how he functions. This is not actually an issue for me. He is who he is. I don't expect him to think logically or rationally or w/empathy. I've been aware of him since I grew up in the NY-NJ Metro area in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
What I cannot fathom is the amount of people who see him and think, "yeah, this is the guy who is going to make things better. This is the guy we need in charge of our country."
My actual anger and frustration is w/those who have enabled him and support him while allowing this desecration of our Democracy, our precious values of decency and humanity. They should be held responsible, accountable for all this. (And Chief Roberts mild rebuke ags the statement that we "don't impeach judges/justices" because we disagree w/their decisions is well, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so ludicrous. He is the reason this individual believes he is above the law.
2. Sin. The religious or faith language for what is happening is sin. The brokenness of the world, of creation is at play. The hard part is accepting that this is a part of our reality. What we do w/that however is up to us. How we do it I hope will be a reflection of whose we are and who we say we are - Children of God.
I would like to have these types of conversations. The challenges for me -- I am surrounded by like minded people either by intent or circumstances. I hesitate to begin real conversations with people I don't know. I am a pastor. I have learned to NEVER assume that everyone in the pews is coming from the same place politically, theologically, or socially. On a broad spectrum I really think we need to relearn how to have caring and honest conversations and reclaim the art of compromise with the goal of coming together to make life better.
Self-reliance is the great untruth that is so hard to explain and demonstrate. When the initial and continuing offers of some version of "40 acres and a mule", of land for the taking because others have been extirpated or removed, look to their grantees like their own persistence and "grit", it is hard to make progress, in conversation or otherwise. The law that looks "natural" is in fact stacked against all but white males for most of our history.
Thank you, Cameron. My partner and I are like Mark and you. I read the conversation to her and we both so appreciated the honesty and the care with which you shared your vastly different views. Yes, we are in this together.
First and foremost thank you for your reflections and prayers. They are my primary resource for my morning prayer. Your thoughts and questions assist my processing of this challenging and dark time. While I value this conversation, I need some clarity: where is the corruption he spoke of and how exactly has the system been rigged against everyday Americans? I am fighting a heart that can't stand anything about DT. His style of leadership appears to be grounded in bullying, belittling people, and I can't overlook the sexism and racism that reeks from this Administration. He has not tried to unite us, rather he is dividing us further and I fear that people will become violent. It feels like the school yard bully won the fight and assumed control and I wish there was some place else I could move to.
I am a Canadian. I have visited the United States over the years and had a few extended vacations there. I don't know if I will ever go back. I consider the actions of the present Trump administration to be the most significant adverse development in the history of the world since the end of WWII. I see significant parallels between this administration and the administration of Adolf Hitler. I do not understand why more thinking, moral Americans are not acting strongly to resist the actions of Trump and his supporters. God help us all.
Blessings on you and yours and on all who follow this thread.
Thank you so much for posting this. I am an interfaith minister/hospice chaplain who just moved a few months ago from Chicago to a southern state. When I first started meeting my patients, I would scour their yard for political signs and try to catch what news station was on before I entered to prepare myself. Although I do my best to avoid political discussions in my role, in an over-politicized world during an election season, it often comes up. Here is what I have noticed.
As I got to know and love more and more people who I didn’t agree with, the less hyper-vigilant I became about labeling them. I just started to see them as people who are afraid, because we all are just running around scared shitless in this world. All of us.
When I ask people about fears, as chaplains do, I have yet to find a time where my innate fears as a human did not in some way connect with theirs, because we are all insanely human. All of us.
So, now I don’t listen outside the door for what news station is on or search for potential MAGA items in a living room. It doesn’t even occur to me. I am changed. I think this change in me is biological (check out Kurt Gray’s book, “Outraged”) and spiritual (check out the Bible or any ancient spiritual text).
Jesus did teach us to love our enemies, but what I am relearning from Jesus every day now is this. When we are open to the Christ-like nature of every person, especially those we perceive as our enemies, we realize they were probably never our enemies in the first place.
While I appreciate the dialogue this persons worldview is dictated by the propaganda from Fox News. The problem that I see is that it comes from one worldview perspective - white superiority. These same people make NO attempt to hear another side or to try and understand another person's lives experience. The cultur they grew up in - whiteness is totally different from lived experiences of others. And without any desire to believe experiences of others, they will always have a limited viewpoint. And let's fjusy speak the truth, it's always been about white superiority - set up by a system that has been in operation from the beginning of time- to divide people. We know it's always been about class - disguised as racism and sexism. And for which people has consistently bought into. The constant act to do a comparison demonstrates the same old tired wordiness. To deny this administration ideology and values that go against Christian values is just ridiculous. Dialogue is good when people are truly invested in wanting to be open to other viewpoints and understand HISTORY, not the constant everyday gaslighting that FOX news and this administration spew daily. They don't care about anyone who is not part of the 1% however so many think they are different because that is what they have been led to believe - that they are special, however they have been and are continuing to be used at the expense of others. To HATE people you know nothing about and make no effort to want to understand - tells all. They are not interested in things being different if it effects their status quo.
Every fiber of my heart wants to be able to see this as two sides of a conversation that just see things from a different perspective. I do hear that in this conversation you shared. But something in my just bristles about statements made by your friend Mark. So I get quiet and ask myself "what is stirring when you read that"? For me, I think a HUGE challenge is hearing statements of opinion that are posited as facts. Such as, "He’s not ignoring the courts—he’s challenging activist judges who are trying to block his policies. " The fact is that Donald Trump and his administration have directly disobeyed court orders. That is just a matter of fact. And that threatens to neuter the rule of law. If he had said "Yes, they ignored a court order, but my opinion is that it was a justified act because I see the judges as acting out of line", that could have taken the conversation to a deeper place about the values underneath.
I know I do this too. I state my opinions in a way that presents them as facts. I am praying very hard right now for the gift of discernment. Even within circles of friends where we all agree - I am seeing it as corrosive to state my opinions as if they are hard facts. I am fully engaged in citizen activism to rise up against what I believe to be an alarming and dangerous move toward an authoritarian regime in the US. I look at facts of what is happening and I am called into action. Along the way, I continue to pray for the ability to discern facts from my story about the facts. May God be with us, helping to clear our vision and keep our hearts open.
I am most grateful to read about these two sides to this conversation. It is always helpful, and I think healthy, to listen to and try to understand other points of view. And while it may be true that changes need to be made in the various departments of government, what weighs my heart down and deeply saddens me is how the changes are currently being carried out with such violence. Programs that helped our day to day lives work are cut short, education and our history are cast aside, differences are ignored, our veterans are shortchanged, safety is compromised and children go hungry. And that doesn't even begin to touch the list. I believe we are called to stand up for justice, to let the love of Christ continue to shine in our hearts and to reach beyond ourselves to live our faith in the face of what I honestly feel, and I feel this way for the first time in my life, is true oppression in our country. No matter what this administration erases from websites about who we are and who has made sacrifices for our well-being. No matter what the administration makes in the way of judgement about what the religion, sexual preference or ethnicity of an individual is. We cannot give up.
We must have courage and remain steadfast in what God is calling us to do.
Amen!
Thank you for your daily ministry in these last weeks---it has sustained and blessed me and my online community in many ways. Thank you especially for the transcript of this conversation which so clearly demonstrates the reason we are so divided. This is a big help to me to have a window into the thinking of some of my family and colleagues when I shake my head at how they can support this administration. Your friend Mark has a valid point that national leaders of the Democratic party have largely left the rural working class out of their conversations and talk down to them from a place of intellectual superiority. Nobody likes that. And we are all guilty of jumping on someone in a very judgemental way when they unknowingly aren't as "woke" as we are and use the wrong terminology in a discussion. Nobody likes that either. The thing that Mark and my collegues are missing is that if we abandon the rule of law, we are all doomed. Let's give Mark the benefit of the doubt and say that all the things he says are true---the system is pitted against Trump and the little guy and he has to fight back hard to break it and make things right. He can fight back hard. He can even change things dramatically. But if he doesn't do it within the legal system and the legislative process, then we have anarchy and one-man rule. Would he like for a Democratic president to massively change things in a direction Mark doesn't like despite judges orders and despite congressional approval? Presidents have a lot of power, even within the law. And Trump could make most of these changes he is making within the law and with legislation if he wants to, but he is choosing not to do it that way because he wants to break the rule of law itself.
And sadly, the Supreme Court has enabled Trump to do just that!
I read your column first thing every morning while I try to find God in this whole mess. Thank you for offering such grace to the world. We are all on our last nerve these days and you provide a sense of calm, common sense and proof that there is still goodness in our world.
Thank you!!!
Thanks for sharing this conversation. I hope there will be more conversations like this all over the place. I was thinking this morning about writing something entitled "Why Do We Hate Each Other So Much" after observing that close to half of the country thinks the other half is evil and/or stupid - and the other half thinks the same. Not sure if the writing will materialize, but I do see a heightened mutual abhorrence that is getting us nowhere. I am not quite sure how to remedy this. For me, the problem is that the beliefs and philosophies I hold are a part of the depth of my being - and matter to me and people I love. I am struggling to be able to set that reality aside and take time to listen - and am rarely successful. Thanks for sharing your courageous and insightful conversation. Peace!
Thank you Cameron.
I’ve read several comments to your thread today agree and disagree. I am on a cruise in Europe and today we gave a walking tour of Regensberg’s old town and Jews sector. Our guide was a young 30ish young lady who was a second language teacher. On the site of the former Synagogue, she recalled the first and second world wars, paying particular attention to treatment of Jews. What she told us and several were American was what happened then. She was very emotional and very accurate. She excused herself and said that the present American administration was repeating history.
It’s hard to talk to someone who won’t/can’t listen. Right now, it’s too late to save America because of the constant bombardment of the lies and there does not appear to be any real effort to stop them. The Fox New tirade said it all, there is no respect for the truth….GOD HELP US ALL!!!
Staying in conversation with dignity and respect, particularly with those who hold different points of view is a superhuman challenge to each of us. I am working to learn and practice the following practices, which you embodied in your conversation:
1. Don't take it personally
2. Don't play the victim
3. Avoid other forms of communication except direct conversatioins
4. Find meaning and possibility in the struggles ahead
5. Define yourself. Don't let others define you.
6. Don't abandon yourself or those you love and serve. Remember who you are and why you're here.
7. Know what you are faithful to, both spiritually and practically.
8. Embody your faith.
9. Only use processes that bring people together in mutual respect.
10. Conversation is the technology.
11. Stay stedfast in your behavior.
From "Who Do We Chose to Be" by Magargaret J. Wheatley. abbreviated from Lessons Learned fom Besieged Nuns, pps. 114-115
Beautiful!
Rev Trimble, I so appreciate the wisdom and holistic theological reflections you share. Your views on things tend to balance out my, shall we say, sometimes passionate response to the issues I care about. I also can say I don't disagree w/your friend that things needed to change. Our system was imperfect. It did tend to favor those who had money and power, who are white, hetero male. I mean no disrespect to the white, hetero males who acknowledge this, have done and are doing the work to address the power imbalance in our county. Ours has been a system which outright harmed and harms people of color, people in the LGBTQ+community, including those who identify their gender or relationship status in many different ways, people of different abilities, and women. He's not wrong about that. And there has been an attitude of dismissal towards blue collar workers, toward the farmers, towards those not in the ivory towers. How often over the years have children been told to go to the college, it's the way out or up, forgetting that we need the artists, musicians, electricians, plumbers, construction workers and others as well.
Where I disagree with with him and am having a hard time understanding is why he and others think a 34 times convicted felon, a rapist (convicted in civil court), one who engages in racist practices, has no idea about the faith that Jesus taught and practiced yet is somehow considered a person of faith, is the person who can address the social ills of our society. His thoughts which guide his actions are not helping anyone except those in his circle and the extremely wealthy. I'm guessing your friend is not in that category.
I wish to share two articles that may help explain to your friend why his presidency is not a good idea for this county, for his neighbors as well as for people across the globe.
Here is the link to Robert Reich's newsletter of today describing in detail how destructive these actions are. You may perhaps have already seen this:
https://open.substack.com/pub/robertreich/p/trumps-attack-on-the-american-mind?r=45v43&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
Additonally -Brandon Weber shared the following on FB. I apologize for the length of this comment but I read both of these things after reading your meditation and thought that the information stated might worth sharing in addition to your reasoned and reasonable response to his positions. This administration is dismantling our Democracy willy-nilly and literally ending people's lives with this destruction. I hope if you have further conversation with him, this can be of some use.
SHARED BY Brandon Weber on FB
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"The best, most cogent and elegantly simple explanation into the inexplicably destructive negotiating processes of the president, by Prof. David Honig of Indiana University.
Everybody I know should read this accurate and enlightening piece...
“I’m going to get a little wonky and write about Donald Trump and negotiations. For those who don't know, I'm an adjunct professor at Indiana University - Robert H. McKinney School of Law and I teach negotiations. Okay, here goes.
Trump, as most of us know, is the credited author of "The Art of the Deal," a book that was actually ghost written by a man named Tony Schwartz, who was given access to Trump and wrote based upon his observations. If you've read The Art of the Deal, or if you've followed Trump lately, you'll know, even if you didn't know the label, that he sees all dealmaking as what we call "distributive bargaining."
Distributive bargaining always has a winner and a loser. It happens when there is a fixed quantity of something and two sides are fighting over how it gets distributed. Think of it as a pie and you're fighting over who gets how many pieces. In Trump's world, the bargaining was for a building, or for construction work, or subcontractors. He perceives a successful bargain as one in which there is a winner and a loser, so if he pays less than the seller wants, he wins. The more he saves the more he wins.
The other type of bargaining is called integrative bargaining. In integrative bargaining the two sides don't have a complete conflict of interest, and it is possible to reach mutually beneficial agreements. Think of it, not a single pie to be divided by two hungry people, but as a baker and a caterer negotiating over how many pies will be baked at what prices, and the nature of their ongoing relationship after this one gig is over.
The problem with Trump is that he sees only distributive bargaining in an international world that requires integrative bargaining. He can raise tariffs, but so can other countries. He can't demand they not respond. There is no defined end to the negotiation and there is no simple winner and loser. There are always more pies to be baked. Further, negotiations aren't binary. China's choices aren't (a) buy soybeans from US farmers, or (b) don't buy soybeans. They can also (c) buy soybeans from Russia, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Canada, etc. That completely strips the distributive bargainer of his power to win or lose, to control the negotiation.
One of the risks of distributive bargaining is bad will. In a one-time distributive bargain, e.g. negotiating with the cabinet maker in your casino about whether you're going to pay his whole bill or demand a discount, you don't have to worry about your ongoing credibility or the next deal. If you do that to the cabinet maker, you can bet he won't agree to do the cabinets in your next casino, and you're going to have to find another cabinet maker.
There isn't another Canada.
So when you approach international negotiation, in a world as complex as ours, with integrated economies and multiple buyers and sellers, you simply must approach them through integrative bargaining. If you attempt distributive bargaining, success is impossible. And we see that already.
Trump has raised tariffs on China. China responded, in addition to raising tariffs on US goods, by dropping all its soybean orders from the US and buying them from Russia. The effect is not only to cause tremendous harm to US farmers, but also to increase Russian revenue, making Russia less susceptible to sanctions and boycotts, increasing its economic and political power in the world, and reducing ours. Trump saw steel and aluminum and thought it would be an easy win, BECAUSE HE SAW ONLY STEEL AND ALUMINUM - HE SEES EVERY NEGOTIATION AS DISTRIBUTIVE. China saw it as integrative, and integrated Russia and its soybean purchase orders into a far more complex negotiation ecosystem.
Trump has the same weakness politically. For every winner there must be a loser. And that's just not how politics works, not over the long run.
For people who study negotiations, this is incredibly basic stuff, negotiations 101, definitions you learn before you even start talking about styles and tactics. And here's another huge problem for us.
Trump is utterly convinced that his experience in a closely held real estate company has prepared him to run a nation, and therefore he rejects the advice of people who spent entire careers studying the nuances of international negotiations and diplomacy. But the leaders on the other side of the table have not eschewed expertise, they have embraced it. And that means they look at Trump and, given his very limited tool chest and his blindly distributive understanding of negotiation, they know exactly what he is going to do and exactly how to respond to it.
From a professional negotiation point of view, Trump isn't even bringing checkers to a chess match. He's bringing a quarter that he insists of flipping for heads or tails, while everybody else is studying the chess board to decide whether its better to open with Najdorf or Grünfeld.”
— David Honig"
“An invitation to listen—not to agree, but to understand.” is listed as one of the invitations. You listened, you do not agree, but can you truly say you understand? I leave these kinds of conversations still mystified because I don’t understand. How do two people look at something green and one person claims it’s purple and the other says it’s pink? Objectively, somebody is incorrect. I can listen, and not agree, but I can’t understand! This is all rhetorical of course, none of us really knows how to close this gap. So we do our best to love our fellow neighbors and friends.
MaryBeth - I have this conversation with myself frequently. I have two thoughts re: this.
1: If you are familiar w/the Meyers-Briggs assessment and the Enneagram you already know that we humans process information differently, from each other, not just the rest of creation. I really started thinking about this in 2016, the first go-around w/the upheaval this individual brought to our country and the rest of the world. The thought crossed my mind that the two primary groups of people in this existence, his supporters and those who don't, aren't only seeing things differently but must have different brain structures. How else to explain the radical differences...but if we think about it, brain structure and/or function must have something to do with it. Using your example of colors, I am reminded that people do not necessarily even see the same colors and I am not just talking about color blindness. My husband and I can look at the same color and he will say it is something completely different from what I see. Perhaps our experiences also "color" (sorry) the way we respond to what we see, hear and experience.
Additionally, to this point, while not being presumptuous enough to make any kind of diagnosis as it's not my place, there seem to be mental health issues (also brain related, hence my mentioning that) that influence how he functions. This is not actually an issue for me. He is who he is. I don't expect him to think logically or rationally or w/empathy. I've been aware of him since I grew up in the NY-NJ Metro area in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
What I cannot fathom is the amount of people who see him and think, "yeah, this is the guy who is going to make things better. This is the guy we need in charge of our country."
My actual anger and frustration is w/those who have enabled him and support him while allowing this desecration of our Democracy, our precious values of decency and humanity. They should be held responsible, accountable for all this. (And Chief Roberts mild rebuke ags the statement that we "don't impeach judges/justices" because we disagree w/their decisions is well, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so ludicrous. He is the reason this individual believes he is above the law.
2. Sin. The religious or faith language for what is happening is sin. The brokenness of the world, of creation is at play. The hard part is accepting that this is a part of our reality. What we do w/that however is up to us. How we do it I hope will be a reflection of whose we are and who we say we are - Children of God.
Grace, peace and blessings.
I would like to have these types of conversations. The challenges for me -- I am surrounded by like minded people either by intent or circumstances. I hesitate to begin real conversations with people I don't know. I am a pastor. I have learned to NEVER assume that everyone in the pews is coming from the same place politically, theologically, or socially. On a broad spectrum I really think we need to relearn how to have caring and honest conversations and reclaim the art of compromise with the goal of coming together to make life better.
Self-reliance is the great untruth that is so hard to explain and demonstrate. When the initial and continuing offers of some version of "40 acres and a mule", of land for the taking because others have been extirpated or removed, look to their grantees like their own persistence and "grit", it is hard to make progress, in conversation or otherwise. The law that looks "natural" is in fact stacked against all but white males for most of our history.
Thank you, Cameron. My partner and I are like Mark and you. I read the conversation to her and we both so appreciated the honesty and the care with which you shared your vastly different views. Yes, we are in this together.
First and foremost thank you for your reflections and prayers. They are my primary resource for my morning prayer. Your thoughts and questions assist my processing of this challenging and dark time. While I value this conversation, I need some clarity: where is the corruption he spoke of and how exactly has the system been rigged against everyday Americans? I am fighting a heart that can't stand anything about DT. His style of leadership appears to be grounded in bullying, belittling people, and I can't overlook the sexism and racism that reeks from this Administration. He has not tried to unite us, rather he is dividing us further and I fear that people will become violent. It feels like the school yard bully won the fight and assumed control and I wish there was some place else I could move to.